DO CATHOLICS PRAY TO DEAD SPIRITS?

I'm trying to keep up! :o)

I have had many emails and questions posed to me in person, via Facebook and via the "Contact Me" button on this blog since I wrote the "What Do Catholics Believe" post.

I've found that many people are much like I am, in that they have always wanted to ask the questions, but were too "afraid" to do so because...well...This Is About RELIGION!  It's a touchy subject! LOL (and frankly, we are all adults and feel that we should already know much of this...but we don't...so here we are...)

I have been busy reading, questioning, sifting through the many answers and gathering information to try to answer the inquiries.

For those who are reading this blog for the first time, you should know that I am "just" a regular Bible-Belt Protestant who happened to move to Michigan.

This blog is our family blog...left for my children...so they can read mom's ramblings when I've gone the way of the dodo bird.

Cutting to the chase: Basically, everything goes into the blog because it's our scrapbook.  Literally...I have it printed into a hard back book for a keepsake....Aren't you glad kids...grandkids.... :o)


It just so happens that I have, here in Michigan, met quite a few wonderful families over the past few years that happen to be PRACTICING Catholics. I have had the uncanny luck to become close friends with many of "them" AND have open, honest discussions with them regarding religion...that do NOT lead to debates, anger or even many uneasy moments. What a hoot! I blogged about this a year or so ago, and the post basically took on a life of its own. Now, I'm on post number four! LOL

These wonderful people have put up with me. They love me even though I have said completely ABSURD things like..."Why do you worship Mary?" "Why don't you pray to Jesus?" and "You have dirt on your forehead."  (Ash Wednesday...for my Protestant friends.  It's something like washing feet but enforces being humble AND repentant.)

So, if you are a protestant...especially from the Bible Belt...who wants to know "What's up with those Catholics"...I would suggest that you start from the beginning with post number one.  Like-wise for Catholics as you'll get "our side" too. :o)


Blog post number 1 deals with the most common questions...or at least the ones I always wanted to know.  Part 2 is more in depth. Part Three deals with more "deep" topics and is written in more detail.

  Click for...

Part One - Part Two - Part Three 

If you are a protestant and you have a question or information for me, please feel free to drop me a line.  I don't "allow" anonymous comments on this blog.  This helps me "weed" out those who wish to flame these posts.  I'm truly thankful for the forthright, respectful, questions and comments that have been posed and enjoy looking up the answers.

So without further adieu...

Here is part 4 of MY understandings from "the other" Christians.  

In this post, I'll pose the question asked to me and then give the answer I understood from research. 

(online/off-line/in person) 

Feel free to Click the "Chapter" to read the original posts that began the saga written over the past year.

Part One - Part Two - Part Three

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HERE WE GO

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Question 1: Why Is the Catholic Bible Different?
(Question posed by Tarla on Facebook)

This is usually where I would say "Protestant's Believe"...  But, I'm not quite sure how ignorant I am compared to my Protestant counterparts and/or how well versed my Protestant counterparts are on this subject. So for this Question...I'm just going to type my heart out with what I've discovered.  Here we go...

Please be aware that this particular question seemed ever so innocent to me.  I didn't "think" I would find anything very interesting when I began researching this question.  I do believe that this one...caught me off guard.  In my Protestant mind I always assumed that the Apostles and early Christians worshiped like I do.  It never dawned on me to actually check to see how they worshiped. 
The answers I found are a bit unsettling; to me anyway.  The research is causing me to delve more deeply into why I believe the "things" I do.

Here we go to answer Tarla's Original Question. 

Why is the Catholic Bible Different?

Short answer: 

Both Protestant and Catholic Bibles have the same New Testament...All 27 books are the same.
Catholic Bibles have 7 extra books in the Old Testament...BUT Protestants HAD THOSE SAME BOOKS in The King James Version....and took them out only 240 years ago.

What!?  Oh yes. Truth it be.


These books are called the Apocrypha.  These books were in ALL of our Bibles until....are you ready?... Until the 1700's!   In 1769 publishers decided to save money and take out books that were in the front of the Bibles. (Granted...the push came from Puritans, and nobody knew what to do with the books for so many year, so it wasn't a great leap when they were dropped...it wasn't "just to save money" (see below: long version) but I can totally see how saving money played a part in this)

SO...All the people from Jesus' time...through the Bible making, printing, selling, preaching times...for OVER 1 Thousand 7 hundred years...had these books in their Bibles.  What a Hoot!  I'm 39 years old and did NOT know that!

Long Answer: 

For many years I thought that the Catholic Bible was written by man...not the Holy Spirit.  I "thought" they used something called the Catechism as their Bible. (Turns out that the Catechism is their doctrine, like Protestant churches have our own doctrine...statement of faith...rules of the church)

I didn't know that Catholics actually use "The Bible." It turns out that they do read The Bible because their doctrine is based on The Bible...and we're talking...The Same Bible.

Here is the difference between "their" Bible and "ours"...for the past 240 or so years...since 1769.

Both Protestant and Catholic Bibles have the same 27 books in the New Testament.

Catholic Bibles have 7 extra books in the Old Testament.

Why?

Before Jesus' time, around 2200 years ago, Jewish scholars put together all of the Jewish Scriptures. All of the books together in their entirety are called the Septuagint. (What we know as the Old Testament plus more books that we've taken out over time...since Jesus' resurrection.)

Now, here's the dicey part...and the part that shook my protestant psyche to the core...

The books of the Septuagint were placed in the original Authorized King James Version of  The Bible.  I was always taught that we read The King James Version because it doesn't change. Well, that's a fine how do ya do.

Side Note: The oldest translation of the Septuagint "still around" is from the time of Alexander the Great which is from about 350 A.D.

When the New Testament was being compiled with the Old Testament, some of the books of the Septuagint were moved around in The Bibles..some of the books were put in the appendix...sometimes various books of the Old Testament would be put in the beginning of the Bibles as a history about Bible Times.  You just never knew in what order the Bible would be arranged next.
Eventually, over 100's and 100's of years...some of the books of the Bible were named the Apocrypha.   They remained in the Bibles.  Around 241 years ago, various Protestant people decided they didn't want the Apocrypha in their Bibles.  The publishers took notice because they could save money by keeping the Apocrypha out of the Bibles...so they were taken out....with Martin Luther's Blessing....as he began messing with words in the Bible and what-not well before the 1700's. He's the one who added the word "alone" or "apart"....as in faith alone....at one point.  He CHANGED Romans 3:28 and thus, started the debate between that verse and the teachings in the book of James. 


Read more here...

And Read more here....


Side Note:  So, am I to understand that ALL of those 1500 or so years...The Bible was translated by MANY people, Kings and Church Officials...and taught in Church....and NONE of them changed any words...but Martin Luther..."had"...to change a word or two to "make it work."  (I'm getting nauseated...I need someone to help me with this...Anybody?) Now it's back to normal...I think. :o(

When Luther was challenged on any of his views of which Scripture to keep and which ones to take out, Luther said, "Thus I will have it, thus I order it, my will is reason enough."

This is one of the things that caught me off guard...Okay, there I admit it. 

Granted, at the time when Luther was a Practicing Catholic, the Catholic Church in one area of the world was "selling salvation" and claiming that viewing or buying "things" belonging to Biblical Characters of the Bible would save them.  Of course, that's terrible…AND non-Christian people were being killed for going against the Church....that was, of course, even worse. 

The Faithful Practicing Catholics were still practicing the age old religion...some even underground...but the Pope at that time was a "wolf in sheep's clothing."  So Luther had every right to demand that those false teachings be dissolved. (I hope I'm getting this right!)

We all know about the Inquisition...the Medieval practices through history where people were just killing each other left and right.  We know that the "Catholic Church" did this.  I have to interject that in my studies, I see that it wasn't "the Church" so much as it was just humans all over the place who were crazy.  I found, in my historical studies that even good ole Martin Luther was quite the bugger himself. (Yes, our protestant founder...okay, I admit it) He wasn't "selling salvation" but he was calling for people to be put to death for their sins...just like people in the Catholic Church had been! Ack!!

Here are a few snippets...I'm only posting two but there are many.

Side Note: I'm putting this in here to be fair to both Protestants and Catholics.  We all stunk back then...and before this time.  History is riddled with our pathetic human carnage.  That's sin for ya.  We Protestants do like to "poo poo" that period of the Catholic Church for their heresies, but the truth is that both sides had some crazy notions about religion and how to handle those who don't believe like we do, during that time in history. So turnabout is FAIR play. :o)

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Concerning the female sorcerer. . . . Why does the law name women more than men here, even though men are also guilty of this? 

Luther "Because women are more susceptible to those superstitions of Satan; take Eve, for example. They are commonly called "wise women." Let them be killed."(Sermon on Exodus 22:18: "You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live," 1526, WA XVI, p. 551; in Susan C. Karant-Nunn & Merry E. Wiesner-Hanks, ibid, p. 231)

Between September 2 and 17, 1540. No. 5207.
In Dessau there was a twelve-year old boy like this: (140) Luther: "he devoured as much as four farmers did, and he did nothing else than eat and excrete. Luther suggested that he be suffocated."
Somebody asked, “For what reason?”
Luther replied, “Because I think he's simply a mass of flesh without a soul. Couldn’t the devil have done this, inasmuch as he gives such shape to the body and mind even of those who have reason that in their obsession they hear, see, and feel nothing?“The devil is himself their soul."
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Side Note: So, there were some crazy things happening in the church at that time, though I found it interesting that during that time there was NO "new" Dogma written or declared in the Catholic Church....but in my denomination...Luther changed the age old teachings after he started his own church....I think....

Help?  Any theology majors out there...pastors?  

Anyone...give me your particular take on this, please.

Can someone, tell me when/where the Protestant religious teachings were taught...BEFORE Luther...in what Churches? I'm having a hard time finding "my" church history pre-Luther in historical records. I can only find "catholic" like service examples.

I'm reading The Letters to the Churches in the New Testament and I can find both "Catholic" teachings and "Protestant-esque" teachings written by Paul to the churches.

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So, after ALL THAT MESS....

Eventually, in the protestant religions, the Apocrypha books were deemed NOT to have been divinely inspired and were taken out of the King James Version altogether.....only 241 years ago. (that made life easier I suppose...all of the sudden...someone decided they were not inspired...so there's that to chew on...my head hurts)

I had NEVER been taught about this...NOR did I ask about Biblical History so there's that situation.  I have to take some fault upon myself for this as I am an adult and fully capable of truly, openly and honestly studying the history for myself...(but I digress)

Here is another source if anyone cares to delve into this more deeply.

So, the point is....Our Bibles used to be the same.  The Old Testament is different....now.

WHY NOT EASTERN ORTHODOX?

(Question Posed by Emily K: What I want to know is why Catholic, and not Easter Orthodox. I'd like to compare both of those, since they both lean heavily on the church fathers.)

Hi Emily!

From Crossing The Tiber:    "There is no central leadership to tie the various jurisdictions into one coherent whole. Thus the Eastern Orthodoxy "Church" is actually "Churches." Each jurisdiction is headed by a patriarch, but there is no single, overall hierarchical structure as in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox have always depended upon the SECULAR ruler, the emperor, to call the various Orthodox churches together for ecumenical councils. Since there is no emperor representing all the Orthodox churches, they have been unable to come together as a unified whole for more than one thousand year. They hold to the same ancient traditions as Catholics but have no mechanism for unification into one cohesive whole to this day. Therefore, they are in actuality churches, in the plural."

This is a paraphrased quote from a Catholic message board where I received this answer.

"The Catholic Church is composed of 22 distinct (but not seperated) Churches. The largest is, of course, the Roman Catholic Church. But there are several others such as, Byzantine Catholic and The Chaldean Church.... Most of the Christians in Iraq are actually Catholics of the Chaldean Church. There are Eastern Orthodox Churches within the 22 Churches. What is really neat about the Chaldean Church is that their liturgy is still in Aramaic, which was the language that Jesus spoke as His 'native' language.  Each of those liturgies (sermons) is very distict from the regular Catholic liturgy, but has many of the same elements. Readings from Scripture, a homily (sermon), and a celebration of the Eucharist (Communion) And all are equally 'Catholic.'"

Strangely enough...the Eastern Orthodox Catholics that are "once removed" from The Catholic Church are actually in negotiations to become part of The Catholic Church again...so...it's all good any way you slice it.

"PRAYING" TO SAINTS

It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help.(source)

Don't Catholics Practice Necromancy and The Use of a Medium? (ie: Praying to "Dead" Saints)

I've said before that the idea of talking to people in Heaven is preposterous to Protestants.  We only pray to Jesus. That's it.  So the notion of asking a "dead" person in Heaven to pray for us is just really...it feels weird to even think about it...we just don't do it.

When I noted this in my previous "Catholic/Protestant Posts", I refrained from using more direct language in the hope that I could bypass this touchy subject but the question has been asked so an answer is in order.

Here's the deal...

Most Protestants believe that Catholics practice Necromancy when they talk with "Dead" Saints in Heaven.

There, the cat's out of the bag...pretty noisy cat...but it's out non-the-less.

The reason for this belief is due to the following scripture where Moses warns the Israelites against pagan practices that they will find in the new land.  Here is the passage:

Deuteronomy 18: 9-14: "  ⁹When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. ¹⁰There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. ¹¹Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. ¹²For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. ¹³Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. ¹⁴For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do."

Catholics have read this passage.  The Catholic understanding is that Moses is speaking to God's people and warning them against leaving their faith to join a cult.  Ta Da. That's the sum total of that passage.

Protestant: What is the "sum total"?

Catholic Answer: Love God, Don't Join a Cult against God.

Protestant: Well, that's just not what that means...

Well...maybe...maybe not...let's get into the rest of what Catholics believe about this subject and then decide...

Catholic: Catholics believe that ALL Christians are one in Christ.

Protestant:  agreed

Catholic: Catholics worship Jesus; So they are not summoning "dead" spirits, because...my Catholic friend reminded me.....the Saints are NOT Dead...so the whole "conjuring spirits" thing is a moot point.  Catholics don’t talk to the dead OR follow a different god.


To which I answered with a Protestant..."Huh?"

Answer to my Protestant "Huh?": Catholics believe that Christians are "one in Christ" and thus "never die."

Protestant: Agreed.

Romans 12:4-5:

"For as in one body we have many members, and all members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another."

<sup>John 11: 25-26: 

25</sup>Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: ²⁶And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 

Well, do I believe that?  In my Protestant way, sure.  We're alive "in Heaven."
Let's keep reading shall we?

Luke: 20: 37-38

"³⁷Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. ³⁸For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

Protestant: Well okay, we are "alive" but He's talking about IN HEAVEN...it's not like they know what's going on down here...

Right?

Well, I did some digging.  I guess I'd have to tell that to Elijah and Moses then....because One "died" and one was whisked away into Heaven...but after their "deaths"....Jesus came down to earth.  Just before Jesus was put to "death"...ahem....He made a point to take some of his disciples on a little hike.

During that walk, both Elijah and Moses APPEARED, very much alive again on earth, and began having a chat with Jesus!

What?

Not only that...it all happened right there in front of HUMANS and God Himself was yelling at the disciples, freaking them out, telling them to Pay Attention!


Matthew 17

 ¹After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. ²There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. ³Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.  ⁴Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." ⁵While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" ⁶When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. ⁷But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." ⁸When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus."

(See also: Mark 9:2 and Luke 9:20)

Side Note: For many years I thought people were in Heaven completely oblivious to our lives here on earth. That passage makes me wonder. Then I read this...It's Long... but only because this scripture DETAILS nearly EVERY person of Faith in the Bible and then ties it up in a nice little bow to let us know that they are ALL SURROUNDING US....well...you just read it and see what you think...

Hebrews 11

By Faith

 ¹Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. ²This is what the ancients were commended for.  ³By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. ⁴By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. ⁵By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. ⁶And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. ⁷By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. ⁸By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. ⁹By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. ¹⁰For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. ¹¹By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. ¹²And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. ¹³All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. ¹⁴People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. ¹⁵If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. ¹⁶Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. ¹⁷By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, ¹⁸even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." ¹⁹Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. ²⁰By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
 ²¹By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff. ²²By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones. ²³By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. ²⁴By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. ²⁵He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. ²⁶He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. ²⁷By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. ²⁸By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. ²⁹By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. ³⁰By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days. ³¹By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. ³²And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, ³³who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, ³⁴quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. ³⁵Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. ³⁶Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. ³⁷They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— ³⁸the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. ³⁹These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. ⁴⁰God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.  Chapter 12: ¹Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Did you see that?  He names practically EVERY Wonderful Christian in the Bible.  He details their GREAT Faith and then tells us that we are "Surrounded By Such a great cloud of witnesses" (Them!!  The "Dead" people...who are really Alive.)

It is within THIS context that Catholics speak with and worship with our brothers and sisters in Christ. 

They are not "conjuring dead spirits." They are praising God WITH, praying to God WITH, COMMUNING WITH our ALIVE brothers and sisters in Christ!

Now ALL of that said...

What Did The Apostles Say To Believe?  Didn't the guys who walked with Jesus give us something to believe before we had a Bible to buy?

This is the Apostles Creed...written by all 12 Apostles...this is from the people who wrote the Bible...and is what Catholic also believe....and....what Baptists believe.

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,

9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,

10. the forgiveness of sins,

11. the resurrection of the body,

12. and life everlasting.

Amen

Well...fiddle...There it is...right in the Bible...  So Catholics believe we never are separated from other Saints...we're all Alive...and coming together to worship Christ at all times...even after death on this earth. 

Also, Catholics will point to Revelation 5:6 where we will read about the elders who actually give prayers to Jesus...just like the Catholics happen to believe...

Revelations 5:6 
John sees  in Heaven "⁶Then I saw a Lamb, (Jesus) looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. ⁷He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. ⁸And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the the twenty-four elders (not angels) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Christians)   and they sang a new song: "  You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. ¹⁰ You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Not only did/will those men hand Jesus our Prayers but the Angels will too apparently.  In the book of Revelation, we read that after the bowl full of prayers and incense are placed on the altar: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Shewwwww...So, there's THAT topic.  What a doozey!

Now that I've done some research I have questions. 

Can anyone...on either side of the "others" isle... help me out with some answers? 

Thanks! :o)

1. Who created the "Final" version of the Bible?
2. Where in the Bible does it say that "they" were appointed the power to make the final version?
3. What did people use in the Hundreds of years before the Bible was compiled? They got to hear the Apostles preach and worship like the apostles. Right?
4. If the literacy rate was under 10%, and there were no compiled Bibles for hundreds of years after Jesus' death, how did people learn about Jesus in those hundreds of years?

 Bible? No, it wasn't written in fully or compiled yet.

 Oral Tradition handed down from generation to generation? Yes.


 Right?

6. If there was no New Testament or compiled Bible to read...for over 400 years...and none that could be bought until the year 1455….how could "Bible Only" have been the basis for early Christians?  Didn't they "have" to rely on Oral Tradition, just as the Jews did for all those thousands of years before Jesus was born?

7. When did "Bible Only" theology take affect? 

My head...is spinning...Anyone have some Protestant answers?  

I feel like I should know the answers to these things by now!

WHAT IS DOGMA?...
Original Question: (prefers to remain anonymous) "Do Catholics have to believe every single answer in the Catechism?"

As with any religion, there is a community of people that make up the body.  Can we find a religion where every member believes all of the teachings in the exact same way?  In a cult, maybe, in a recognized religion...it's highly unlikely.

When I heard the word Dogma I thought it meant "Catechism."  I "thought" that every Catholic HAD to believe every single answer in that book.  I "thought" that the Catechism WAS "their" Bible.  I "thought" wrong.
 
In my defense, there was a long period of time when many Catholic Churches basically were headed by a Priest who didn't "push" the idea of reading the Bible.  Many Catholics studied what the Church taught and never opened a Bible...some didn't even own one!  This is not true of every Catholic person but in the past 30 years or so, there have been many Catholics who will attest that they didn't have the best "Sunday School."  They feel that they are just now, as adults, really understanding their faith as it "should" have been presented. So, I came by this "misunderstanding" honestly.

The word Dogma is usually thought to mean just "the teachings of a church."  Dogma can relate to any church really...their "Statement of Beliefs" is considered to be their "dogma."

In the Catholic Church, however, there is "Dogma" (teachings) that will NEVER change.  There are indeed teachings that may be understood better, or answered in a more understandable way as time goes by; as the Catechism is less about beating people over the head with what they "have" to believe and more about answering questions that have been posed to the Deacons over these thousands of years.  However, when the word Dogma is used in Catholicism, I'm finding that this is usually the word that defines the Teachings that are Unchangeable...

THE "you have to believe it, it's what Catholicism stands for"...DOGMA of the Catholic Church...
So, what is DOGMA in the Catholic Church?  What does a Catholic "Have" to believe?

Answer: THE NICENE CREED

THE NICENE CREED....What is THAT???

Well, this, my protestant friends is the big question.  This is "what Catholics have to believe to be Catholic."

The word "Catholic" means "Universal"...that's important later one... Here we go...

"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from Heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic,(universal) and apostolic (taught from Jesus' Apostles) Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.(Confirmation Baptism...the one where we are older and choose it..it also involves asking for forgiveness from Jesus) We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

The "Catholic" and "Baptism" parts are taken from here..."There is one body and one spirit," Paul wrote, "just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all" (Eph.4:4-5).

They believe that the Holy Spirit came down upon the Church at Pentecost at a time when "there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). It was then that the Holy Spirit temporarily enabled the apostles to speak in the languages of all these various nations.  This was an absolutely powerful sign that the Church was destined for all men everywhere, (universal).  Many people accepted the faith at that time and began the teachings of the Church.  They carried those teachings back to their land(s).

What is Purgatory?  The actual question was..."How can they possibly think there is such a place as purgatory?!" LOL

The history of Purgatory dates back before Jesus was here on earth. Click Here for the History.  Basically Catholics believe that when a person dies, they will have the true knowledge that "God Is a Consuming Fire" Hebrews 12:29.  It is at that time that the soul will go through Judgment day... immediately.

Catholics believe that the person/soul will find out where they are going right then.  They either go to Heaven "in the Fire of God's Love", Hell "in the Fire of God's punishment" or "walk through fire"...(Purgatory)...to be purified by the Fire of Gods purgation....before they enter Heaven. Read a LOT more HERE

Purgatory is a completely foreign concept to Protestants. I can safely say that most protestants have never read the writings of the Early Church leaders...(the leaders of the Churches right after Christ's resurrection)…apart from the King James Vesion we know today.  That's true for me anyway. I didn’t even know there were records about how churches were run and what-not.

The idea that it was "common knowledge" that there could be a "walk of fire" has never been presented to most Protestants.  This is why we cannot understand how we would "Need" a "Walk of Fire" if Jesus has saved us and forgiven us from our sins.

Here’s The "Rub": there is often talk among Protestants about what happens if we are about to have a car wreck or if our heart suddenly stops beating and we don't have time to pray for forgiveness....knowing that we all sin every day.   We all "assume" that we are forgiven because of Jesus' Precious Grace....however....we do have this nagging knowledge that "NO" sin will enter into Heaven.  (ack!)

This is the place that ties that little psychological dance into a nice bow for me.  I understand the "need" for “a walk of fire” in "that" circumstance....though I still believe Jesus blood covers every sin...but we still pray for forgiveness every day...so...you can see the circle of never-ending thought there.

Side Note: I "think" that the big issue with Purgatory is that many Protestants "think" Catholics are trying to "pray people out of Hell."  We don't think of Purgatory at all so to us, it's hell...not a walk of fire.  We also "think" that Catholics assume they will automatically get to go to either Heaven or Purgatory just because they are Catholic.  We "think" that Catholics believe they are safe from hell right after their infant baptism.  Which, my protestant friends, is NOT the case. :o) So, you know...we can stop thinking that now. LOL

ORTHODOX AND ANGLICANISM
(Question posed by "X" in the blog comments)

Are you learning about Orthodox Catholicism?

I'm not really asking much about Orthodox (Eastern) Catholicism for two reasons...my friends are Roman Catholic so that is where my journey for understanding began. I did, however, take a look at the Eastern theology in my quest. I followed the schism that took place over the years with Orthodox and Roman Catholicism.  It "looks" to me that they basically worshiped very much the same way for 1000 years...there were "small" differences, as there are with any religion due to different people in different church buildings having their own social dynamics...but for the most part they worshiped alike. The basic teachings "look" like they are the same to me. The "meat and potatoes" of each seem to be, at their heart, the same as far as the "serving Christ and getting to Heaven" parts. The "thing" that set the two apart, in my mind, was the teaching of "filoque."(and something about unleavened bread)

I have always believed that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one, and not separate. It is my understanding that, in order to bring this point "home," the Roman Church inserted the term "filioque" into the heart of their beliefs...the Nicene Creed.

Traditionally, the Holy Spirit was seen to proceed from God the Father; the insertion of the "filioque" clause meant that, in the West, the Holy Spirit was believed to proceed from God the Father and God the Son. The Catholic Church in the East felt that Rome had overstepped its authority by altering the Creed so they decided not to follow that Pope anymore. (source)

I happen to believe that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, yet separate, and since the division, to me, amounts to saying Potato/PotAto...the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son or Comes from the Son or Comes from the father...they are all the same to me...though God is the Father...at any rate....that ended the bunny trail for me on the Orthodox Church.

To sum up:

Though there were small differences in Roman and Eastern Catholic churches, they all were united until the Nicene creed changed. Basically; the division came about because of the insertion that emphasizes that Jesus, the Son, is of equal divinity with God, the Father, while the absence of it in Eastern Christianity concentrates on the Father.

"There is one body and one spirit," Paul wrote, "just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all" (Eph.4:4-5).

"One Lord" to me is The Father, Son and Holy Spirit combined. If we take away any one of them we don't have God...so...that's my thought process for the questioner.

DID PEOPLE CONFESS THEIR SINS TO PRIESTS "RIGHT" AFTER JESUS ASCENSION?

Yes indeedy....though the practice of public confession was practiced quite a lot in some regions.  Public...as in...stand in the middle of town and tell EVERYONE your sins...for a long time...until the Priests told them they were "done" and allowed them to take communion again! ACK!!

Thank goodness most churches decided to nix that ridiculousness and made confession of sins a more private thing as time went on!  Here are a few excerpts from various sources regarding what the authors witnessed being practiced by Christians in various places just after Jesus Resurrection.

Examples of early worship in the years Before the Bible was compiled into a book. 

What the Catechism says about confession. 

The short version:  People used to confess to a priest and pray to Jesus for forgiveness...just as they do today.  Also, Catholics believe that "Penance" is to help people reunify themselves with their Christian Family (peers) in church.  Penance is not the "thing" that saves the person.  Jesus saves the person.

John 20
¹⁹On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" ²⁰After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.  ²¹Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." ²²And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. ²³If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Here is more stuff on Confession

Here is more stuff on Saints

Okay, I'm ready for comments.  


I'm absolutely positive that I have messed up somewhere! :o)

Please give me the Protestant answers to my questions and some more Protestant history before Luther...I would especially like to see where the Apostles prayed at the altar for forgiveness, talked about Bible Only and precisely when Bible Only took affect.

Any history or Bible passages to back all that up would be great! :o)  I'm all ears for any respectful dialogue, thoughts and comments! :o)

Thanks so much! This is fun!!

A CLOUD OF SMOKE!

Brian and I have been blessed to parent healthy, inquisitive little rascals who really have a tenacity for education.  Some of their education...I would go so far as to say most...is self directed.  Their natural curiosity unfolds a question and their natural body proceeds to find the answer...in a hands on sort of way.  Last week was no exception.

I've blogged about the antics of our children in the past...many of which were headed by our brilliant, spunky little Daxx. It's been a while since we've had any really shocking incidents in our home.  The boys have grown, life has calmed down to a run instead of a sprint and I have allowed myself to relax.  Life is good...but it still throws us a curve-ball now and then.

I was cleaning the bathroom and twin's room last week in my "relaxed" state of grace when Kole arrived to tell me that they were finished coloring their pictures.  I said, "Wonderful, go on down to the playroom to play for a bit while mommy cleans."

The children put away their crayons, placed their pictures around for all to view and then...clomp,clomp, clomp they went down to play in the newly-built playroom equipped with everything from a climbing rope, to books, to a full-out set of monkey bars.

It was during the "going down of the stairs" that I closed the bathroom door...as the cleaning was finished...and went into the boy's room to sweep the floor.  About 10 minutes into the sweeping..."sweeping" involves a very large trash can and tipping a bed over in our house...Kole came into the room to tell me that there's a lot of dust.  I said, yes honey, I'm cleaning...that's why you need to go downstairs for a minute to play.

Kole went obediently down the steps again...and came right back up.

Kole: "Mom"

Shelly" "What?"...I was still cleaning and not looking at my son.

Kole: "There's a lot of dust."

I turned to look at Kole to see him COVERED with dust!

Shelly: "What is that?!"

Kole: "The Dust!"

I went over to dust him off and couldn't figure out what in the world it would be.  He and I went over to the kitchen door, I opened it and a full out CLOUD of...."what I percieved to be smoke at first".... dust hit me in the face!  I began to scream like the house was on fire!  No words...just screams...

I made it to the bottom of the stairs to see 4 wide-eyed little children looking at their mother. As I looked around, it finally sunk in that this "smoke" actually WAS dust!  Quikrete Dust!! 

Yes, our children had gone down to play in the newly renovated playroom and my hubby, God love his heart, had innocently left 2 bags of FULLY SEALED bags of Quikrete lying in the basement foyer...to take out later.  That was no biggie, but the children...you know...our inquisitive, healthy, self-educating children, had found a Large Mallet also.  I mean, what else could they hit with it?  The walls?  No, THAT would make a mess.  Each other?  No, that would be too loud.  The floor?  No, THAT would be no fun.  Hey!  I know! How about those bags over there!




 








Their Question: "How much dust does Quickrete make in an enclosed space if the bags are hit repeatedly by a large mallet and then handfuls of the "stuff" are thrown around?

Shelly: "I know the answer!! Pick Me! Pick Me!  I even have pictures!" 


Side Note: We have added two little children to our mix here in the "Brownie" Home.  We are restricted by law thus unable to post photos of our foster children...and we can't use their names online....but they were in on this tiny fiasco too. The culprits are 3 boys, all six years old...and one precious little 4 year old girl...what has been blamed as the one who "did it first."

This happened Saturday.  Today is Friday.  It's been nearly a week...and I'm still dusting....and so are our children. :o)

WHAT DO CATHOLICS BELIEVE?

It is no secret that most Protestants consider Catholics to be "the other" Christians. By the same token, most Catholics consider Protestants to be "the other" Christians. The interesting part of this dynamic, to me, is that most of us believe that "the others" are probably going to be accepted by Christ. Most of us believe...or at least, strongly hope, that we all will probably see each other in Heaven. We all love each other and respect each other, yet are inherently terrified to talk with each other about what "the others" believe.

We just don't understand each other very well at all. Sadly, ignorance often creates deep division. The fear of division inherently hinders people of both faiths from having an intelligent, Unheated discussion about their religion. I've been fortunate enough, however, to have friends who will indulge my questions, and not only indulge me, but openly discuss their faith without animosity.


When all is said and done, we all have our own beliefs, understand them and live with them...openly...without animosity or "poo pooing" the other persons stance on any given religious issue. During these discussions every one of us have questioned our own beliefs about certain details of our faith, found answers and become stronger in our walk with Christ. It's not as much about "we're right, you're wrong" as it is about, "Why do you believe this, why do I believe THAT?"

I suppose it is my need for answers that drives these discussions....my friends accept this attribute of mine all the while knowing that my "findings" will eventually find their way to this public forum to be dissected and discussed. Thus, here is installment number three of...

"What I have come to understand from...'the other side.'"

-------------------

RECAP
------------------

I was born and raised in a Christian home. I grew up attending evangelical Christian churches in the Bible Belt of America. (Part 1") Here is the post about my Evangelical upbringing AND First Catholic encounter...

My parents were, and still are, very faithful to Jesus, His teachings and living a Christian life. I am also rooted and grounded in Christ's Grace and Love. I gave my life to Christ by repenting of my sins to Jesus, was Baptized in the Ohio river when I was 12 years old, and baptized again, with my husband, during our second year of marriage. We were Baptized in the church Baptismal together...well, one after another...we weren't actually dunked at the same time. LOL


Brian and I have held fast to Jesus, allowing Him to guide our lives the best way we know how. But the one thing we have struggled with through our 20 years of marriage is finding a church where we feel at peace.


In our nearly 20 years of marriage, we've had to move quite a few times. We lived and worked where God led us. We met many people, attended many churches (all protestant) and really feel that God has placed us in the depths of His will.

After moving to Michigan...again...10 years ago...we began meeting many people of different faiths. We've met, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Humanists, Wicca and...Catholics. Now, some people wouldn't put Catholics under the "Different File" because Catholics are Christians, ie: Worship Christ. But, as you can see by my previous "Evangelical" post...and (Part 2) subsequent post....they are considered very "different" by many Protestants.


I used to be amazed that anyone could possibly be Catholic and have a brain in their head.(I know...but it's the truth) I felt that Catholic people were easily led and not really bright enough to think on their own or they would surely be Protestant. This belief was largely based on my "knowledge" that they worship Mary, don't pray to Christ, talk to dead people, see Mary in pieces of toast and think a Priest can get them to Heaven by forgiving their sins. Just LOOK at the Total and Complete ignorance! Little did I know that the ignorance, was on my part.

Now that I have met PRACTICING Catholics, I am no longer able to deny that they have Christ as the center of their lives. I can no longer pretend that they go to Church on Sunday and live like heathens during the week. Yes, that is how I thought a Catholic lived their life, because that is what I witnessed of "Catholics" on television and in my real life growing up in the Bible Belt of America.

I now have very dear, close, friends who share their lives with me openly. I see their daily struggles, the way they teach their children diligently about how to have a personal relationship with Christ Jesus...I see it all. Their lives are held up for my scrutiny....for whatever reason...and they are unashamed to do so.

I am baffled by their openness to my questions, their ability to refrain from "sanitizing" their lives for my benefit. They haven't tried to live holier, speak more holy or put on heirs of family bliss to encourage my love of their religion. They just live life as they always have and allow me to see everything...the good, the bad and the ugly.

In the two years that I've been hounding them for answers, not one has openly tried to convert me to their religion. When I ask questions, I get answers or an occasional book to read...then we're back to talking about our children and/or laughing about a common interest. Each Catholic family I meet is different, yet loving, faithful and open to whatever intrusive questions I throw their way.

After much inner reflection and much prayer, it has become painfully apparent that I was prejudiced against them. I weighed Catholics unfairly in my mind, just as a non-Christian weighs all Christians against the fallen televangelists and crazies screaming on the sidewalks of a dirty city block. The picture of a Catholic that resonated in my mind is very different from the reality of a true, practicing, Catholic person/family.

I don't feel too bad about this predicament though, because I've come to find out that my friends have held many of the same prejudices against Protestants. :o) Even though this is the case, we've not had heated, knock-down, drag-out debates about theology. Why? Because, when all is said and done, we believe that we're all going to Heaven, so what's the big deal? LOL

It is within this dynamic that we've all been able to openly discuss our religious practices without fear and trembling. We just soak up the new information, that streams to and fro, like a dry sponge breathes in water. It's actually been fascinating to discuss our points of view and share the "other" Christian experience.

I'll try to touch on all of the topics of discussion that I've had with my Catholic friends since my last post(s). I should note that there are times when my questions are confusing for my friends, because Protestants and Catholics use different "words" to say the same things at times. I'll try to "translate" as I go along.

This is what I Understand from my Catholic friends and from my research.

When I say "Catholics Believe" I mean...

"This is what my Catholic friends...different families, different churches...not just one family... believe."

When I say "Protestants Believe" I mean...

"This is how I was raised and is true of the many Protestant faiths."

Wish me luck! :o)

Here goes...

---------------------------------------------

PRAYER:

Catholic church services are very, very (yes I used the word "very" twice) different from Protestant church services. Keep in mind that most Protestants lump Lutherans in with Catholics. We consider Lutherans to be "Catholic-Lite" so to speak. :o)

That being said, the normal worship service for a Catholic is made up of small prayers, preaching, Bible reading and the Eucharist. (Communion) I had the pleasure of attending a Mass recently because I was named "Godmother" (Sponsor) to my close friends' newborn baby girl. (Hi Elizabeth) During the church service (mass) I witnessed a lot of "chanting" (praying) by the congregation. What in the world is up with all the chanting back and forth during service? Don't they know that we don't talk in church?! :o)

My question to Heather (Elizabeth's mom) was, Why does everyone say things back and forth to the Pastor (Priest) during service? (My protestant friends know what my "real" question was...right? :o) My real question was..."Why do Catholics practice "vain repetition." )


"Vain Repetition" is spoken about in Matthew 6: 7-15 "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. ⁹"This, then, is how you should pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. ¹⁰Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. ¹¹Give us this day our daily bread. ¹²And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ¹³And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

Catholic Interpretation:

In keeping with the example given of the Lord's Prayer, Catholics keep their prayers short and to the point....like the lord's prayer. They believe they are doing what the scripture said to do by saying prayers meant for specific things...such as the Lord's Prayer that we are supposed to say. Essentially, "God knows what we need before we ask" so why go on and on and on....(like in protestant churches when people pray for 30 minutes or an hour or two hours..."using many words like babbling Pagans.") They believe God asked us to pray diligently, mean what we say and don't say words in vain. Cutting to the chase: They believe that Protestants may be the ones using "vain repetition" because they pray a long time, saying the same things essentially each time but in a different way...making their words "too many."

Protestant Interpretation:

Protestants don't want to repeat the same prayers over and over because they think that's the "vain repetition" that God was talking about. They are concerned that saying prewritten prayers over and over will make the prayers become "repetitive" thus "vain" thus not authentic. Even though God knows what we need before we pray for it, Protestants often need a "feeling" to be assured that God is working in their lives so they will continue to pray for a long time until they "feel" like God has heard them. That "feeling" is often thought to be the Holy Spirit. Some protestants believe we have to pray in church until the Holy Spirit has "spoken" to our heart...thus we pray and sing until that emotion is felt.

Both religions are working hard to please God, but doing so with very different interpretations of the scriptures.

Mary "Worshiping"

Protestants greatly ignore Mary because they are afraid they will offend Jesus by honoring her. They don't see a need to think about her, any more than they feel the need to think about Joseph, the Wise Men, Moses or any other person of the Bible. This is largely due to their belief that dead people are in the grave until Jesus comes back. Many Protestants believe that only God can "see" us down here on earth and hear us. It never, ever crosses a Protestants mind to talk with a Chrsitian who has already passed away, let alone ask them to pray for us, like we do with our friends here on earth. To a protestant, this is proposterous!

Side Note: The knowledge that there must be people in Heaven with God escaped me for many years. In my mind all the people who have died are waiting for God to come back so they can go up to Heaven for Judgment Day. I didn't think people went to Heaven until Judgment day. Now, I have to wonder if Judgment day is more than one day...maybe we all have our own judgment day? I wonder this because, the theif on the cross was with Christ "that day" in Paradise, Enoch and Elijah were whisked away to Heaven...so there are people up there. The next question: If people are up there, does God give them the ability to continue to be part of the Christian community?
Can they hear us and pray for us like when they were living on earth? Are they like our friends down here? Can they still pray for us as our brothers and sisters in Christ? so...there's that to chew on.

Catholics want to adore Mary and give her a place of honor in their lives because they are afraid they will offend Jesus if they don't acknowledge His Mother. They know that we are to honor our mother and father in Christ so, if Jesus was fully God and He was fully man on this earth also...making him our God AND our brother "in Christ"...we should Honor Our Mother in Christ. If she were standing in front of us, they reason, we would have a thousand questions about her life with Christ. If she were standing with Jesus, she would worship Him with us, but He may say, "meet my mother" also. She IS Jesus' Mother chosen by God. She conceived him from the Holy Spirit, she was THERE when Jesus was born, she raised Him and she watched Him die. She was at the foot of the cross agonizing. This is why they call her the Greatest Saint...cause she is. A Catholic can't comprehend NOT honoring her. The issue for Protestants is that we don't ever, ever talk to anyone but Jesus. We see any chatter between ourselves and someone in Heaven as worship. Catholics, however, talk with their brothers and sisters in Christ in Heaven all the time. To them, there is a Huge difference between honor and worship. They worship Christ. They Honor Mary.

Side Note: Some sects of the world do put Mary in a position of worship, but this is NOT what the Catholic church teaches. As with any religion, you will find people who go a bit "off-track" from the actual teaching of their religion. There is even a sect of Catholics who want the church to change their teaching so Mary can also forgive sins...but that is NOT what the church teaches and has been denied by council after council. Mary Worship is NOT something that is in the Catholic doctrine....though she is highly looked up to for her unique relationship with Christ.

ARE YOU SAVED?:

One of the first things I asked my friend Heather when we began our religion talks was...Are you saved? She said...I have hope that I am. I didn't understand that at all...AT. ALL. I said, "Well I am." She sort of squinted like she got a small jolt of electricity and goose pimples. Here's the deal...

Catholics have an issue with proclaiming someone "saved." They will rarely say that they are saved. A Catholic will usually say they have "hope in their Salvation." This just absolutely makes no sense to a Protestant. Most Protestants quote Acts 16:31 as their rock when proclaiming Salvation. Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALL be saved." (not "might" or "hope to be" but SHALL)

The funky thing is that both Catholics and Protestants believe this. The difference is that Catholics acknowledge that even Satan "believes" in Christ Jesus. They understand this passage to use "believe" as a verb of sorts. A Catholic interpretation of this verse would say that it means that we must "have a relationship with Christ" and you shall be saved from Hell. HOWEVER...

Catholics have a very hard time with the idea that we are going to die, waltz up to Jesus in Heaven and say..."Hi there, let me in. You said I'm saved if I believe in you (and live for you) so here I am. I'm Saved." They believe that we are assuming MUCH when proclaiming that we are "saved..for sure" because Jesus says we will ALL be judged. Until we are judged, Catholics believe that we better say we "have hope" and strive to have a relationship with Christ so that when we are judged...JESUS will proclaim us to be Saved.

Catholics acknowledge that Jesus told people, who had gotten "saved" to "go and sin no more" thus leaving Salvation as something that must be "kept," "held to" and forever something to "strive for" while we live on this earth.

Protestants hold a slightly different view in that they hold the word "believe" to be the vessel through which Grace is distributed. Meaning, in the hour that a person truly believes in Christ and then decides to live for Him, they repent and are then "saved." Protestants also believe we have to have a relationship with Christ yet also believe that as soon as we repent that we can proclaim ourselves to be saved....all the while it is well understood that Jesus has the last say on judgment day.

To Sum Up:

Protestants proclaim that they are saved, with the understanding that we must continually live for Jesus to "keep" salvation.

Catholics believe they are saved, but don't have the "nerve" to announce it before Jesus does. :o)


SIDE-NOTE:

While I pondered this interesting dynamic, I couldn't help but wonder why Protestants will quote "Shall be saved!" loud and clear..because "Jesus said it!" but they absolutely refuse to quote, Matt: 16:19 "¹⁹I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Why is that one so hard to believe? Jesus will give men the ability to heal people through faith healing but He won't give men permission to announce that a person's sins are forgiven? It's not like the Priest thinks "he himself" is forgiving sins. Even the Priest knows that Jesus is the one who is forgiving the sins...he is, however, quoting the words Jesus told Him to quote because He believes it...but I addressed this issue in my previous post...so I'll stop there.

TRADITION:

Most Protestants believe in "Bible Only" religion. They have found Jesus through reading His word and believe whole-heartedly that because they have found Peace and Salvation through the Holy Bible that there is no reason to uphold any religious tradition that may have been passed down through the ages. Most protestants don't look into traditions of our forefathers, don't acknowledge that there were different ways of worshiping before the Protestant Reformation/Rebellion and frankly don't care. To back up this mind-set, most protestants have experienced loving, close relationships with their protestant parents and know them to be strong Christians who have a relationship with Christ. Why would a Protestant even consider "another" religion when they "know" that theirs is the "right" one? Nobody wants to hurt their parents by abandoning the family religion...especially when they have seen that religion lived out in an honorable way.


Most Catholics believe in following the Bible AND tradition. They have found Jesus through both, and believe whole-heartedly that because they have found Peace and "Salvation" (buzz word for Catholics) through practicing age-old traditions AND reading the Bible, they have no reason to abandon either. To back up this belief, most Catholics have experienced loving, close relationships with their parents and know them to be strong Christians. Why would a Catholic even consider "another" way to worship when they "know" that theirs is the "right" one? Nobody wants to hurt their parents by abandoning the family religion...especially when they have seen that religion lived out in an honorable way.


Protestant Understanding: The term for believing in the "Bible Only" to find Salvation is "Sola Scriptura." Protestants quote Mark 7:13 to denounce the use of Historical Tradition as another way to serve Christ. In Mark 7:13 we can read what Jesus says to the Pharisees. "They worship me in
vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' ⁸You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

That sound like a dire warning agains tradition doesn't it? Many protestants are worried about the teachings of the Catholic church because Catholics hold tradition to a high standard. Protestants have read Mark 7:13 and deduced that tradition is something to be avoided at all costs. Protestants don't want to touch tradition with a 10 foot pole because they don't want to worship in vain. Protestants think about the "rituals" (buzz word for protestants) that they have seen the Catholic church "do" (another buzz word) and they turn from the religion like it's Satan himself standing at the door.

On the other hand...

Catholics have also read Mark 7:13. They see that verse...and the verses that come before it. Here is the passage in it's entirety...


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Mark 7

Traditions and Commandments

1 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2 they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, 4 and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?" 6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." 9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban"' (that is, given to God) — 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.

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CATHOLIC UNDERSTANDING: Catholics see that Jesus is telling the Pharisees not to "replace" what the Bible teaches by traditions. They see that Jesus isn't against holding to traditions that enforce Biblical teachings. Catholic's keep the teachings and traditions that were handed down long ago, that are in keeping with Biblical teachings and throw away the Traditions that contradict those teachings.


In summary:

Protestants are concerned that Jesus was speaking against all traditions so they won't practice any for fear of offending Jesus. (Except: Weddings, Baptism, Communion, Bowing at the altar...some also hold to traditions of wearing dresses, not dancing, not wearing jewelry...etc.)


Catholics trust that Jesus was trying to reinforce the Biblical traditions and flush out those that were trying to infiltrate Christianity from paganism. Thus Catholics practice the Traditions that reinforce Biblical Truth.

FAITH ALONE:

Most Protestants believe that people are saved by Faith Alone. This is to say that all we have to "do" to be saved is believe in Christ, ask Him to forgive us (maybe get baptised) and we are set. All of that is considered "Faith Alone" even though there's a lot to "do" to be saved by Faith. A small sect of Protestants believe that once a person does this they are saved forever, no matter what. Most others believe that we have to live our lives for Christ and keep striving to do His will in order to "stay saved by Grace, through Faith Alone." Protestants read Ephesians 2:8 to proclaim this "Faith Alone" belief. Most Protestants say they were "saved" the day they prayed to Jesus for forgiveness. However, they do pray often for forgiveness "just in case." :o)

Catholics understand Ephesians 2:8 to mean that when a person has Faith that Jesus is the one and only true God, that they can then accept His teachings. They believe that when we accept His teachings and start living our lives for Him that we will ask for forgiveness, get Baptized and begin taking the Eucharist. (communion) It is at this time that people are considered to be Christians/Catholics...thus followers of Christ. They believe that God's gift of Salvation is Free to all people, just as Protestants believe, and they believe that all we have to do is accept it to be "saved."

It is "how a person accepts Christ" that really creates the difference in these two religions. Catholics believe that we are actually at the Last Supper, (we, as humans, are confined by time but God is not...He created time, thus transcends time) so when they take communion (the Eucharist) they are actually right there with the disciples, with Christ, eating and drinking Him (spiritually) in order to spiritually strengthen ourselves weekly/daily. They also believe in praying to Jesus for forgiveness both outside and inside the confessional. So when a Catholic gets "saved" they...Profess their belief in Christ Jesus as the one and only savior, confess their sins/ask for forgiveness for their sins, Pray the Holy Spirit leads their lives, and they agree to assume the role of a disciple...(live their lives to fulfill God's plan for their life/strive to have a relationship with Christ) and are Baptised at their Confirmation. (I haven't seen this first hand but this is my understanding to date. I "think" Baptised for Catholics is water over the head...not dunking.) (UPDATE: A Catholic friend of mine told me last night...after I posted this...on Facebook...that it's personal preference.  She and her family choose to be completely submerged because "it is more symbolic of the dying and rising with Christ.")

Essentially both religions believe that Jesus will inevitably be seen in the lives of Christians because of the works that we do in our lives. (the fruit of our beliefs will be seen) Ephesians 2:10 and James 2: 14-26 AND both religions believe we have to "do" some things to "get" saved but Protestants don't put much emphasis on "doing" things after the Baptism and Catholics emphasize the importance of taking communion and asking Jesus for salvation often.




COMMUNION/EUCHARIST

Protestants believe that Catholics sacrifice Christ over and over every Sunday....just like Jewish people sacrificed lambs to God. They think that the Catholic Communion (Eucharist) is a making a mockery of the Sacrifice Jesus made for our sins. They quote Hebrews 10:12 to state that Christ died once and for all for our sins. This is why many Protestants don't take communion very seriously. It's "just something we do to remember what God did for us, but it's just a symbol."(Hebrews 10:12 "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.")

On the other hand, most protestants also believe that "communion should be taken seriously because if we do not "believe" then we can take communion and damn ourselves to hell" 1 Corinthians 11:29 Knowing this...I have to ask myself...is "it" God's body or is "it" juice and crackers? I do know one thing...God takes "it" very seriously....somehow I doubt "it" is "just" juice and crackers.


Catholics believe that the Eucharist (Communion) is Jesus body and blood. They believe that the bread and wine turn into Jesus "sacramentally." (Spiritually) They DON'T believe that if we take DNA or look under a microscope that the bread and wine has turned to "physical" Jesus, but they do believe that He IS that bread and wine spiritually.

They believe that all through the old testament God was getting us ready to be able to take the Eucharist (last supper) even after Christ left the earth. They believe that Jesus was "the bread of life" born in Bethlehem, which means "House of Bread" and that He was offered on a plate, (manger) for humans (sheep) throughout time to come to the alter to receive Him as spiritual nutrients. They believe that God transcends time....He lives outside the "box" of time and we live inside the "box" of time. (Thank you for this analogy Mr. Ray)

Catholics found this belief, in part, on Revelation 13:8 "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."

Catholics believe God was NOT taken by surprise that we sinned against Him. They believe that Jesus' sacrifice was known "from the creation of the world." Catholics also believe that Jesus actually saw each and every one of us (you and me) when He said... Luke 22 "19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."

When partaking of the Eucharist (Communion) every Sunday, Catholics believe we are actually transcending time...well, Christ is transcending time to come to us...that we can partake of the last supper in remembrance of Jesus until His return to earth. They are not "re-sacrificing" Him, they are accepting His one sacrifice and doing it until he comes back, just as He asked us to do.

To sum up: Catholics believe that Christ saw each and every person on earth when He took the sins of the world onto Him during his crucifixion and that He offers himself to us through communion, spiritually, to strengthen us...through time...until He comes again.

Now here's the "big" differences in Protestant/Catholic interpretations regarding Communion/Eucharist:

John 6: "⁴⁷I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. ⁴⁸I am the bread of life. ⁴⁹Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. ⁵⁰But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. ⁵¹I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." ⁵²Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" ⁵³Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. ⁵⁴Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. ⁵⁵For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. ⁵⁶Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. ⁵⁷Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. ⁵⁸This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." ⁵⁹He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. ⁶⁰On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" ⁶¹Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? ⁶²What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! ⁶³The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. ⁶⁴Yet there are some of you who do not believe." "

Catholics believe that verse 63 is meant the same way John used it before in John 8:15. They believe that "the flesh" actually means "Use of our human mind." Meaning that we think in human mind and not spiritually. They believe that Jesus words are spiritual and His communion (Eucharist) is what allows us to "remain in 'Him' and 'He' in us" spiritually. (be saved) Basically we are to take the Eucharist because that is how He gives us strength spiritually but the people of that time were thinking only of the physical.

Protestants believe that Jesus wiped out ALL of His previous words when he said verse sixty-three. They believe that he was being metaphoric in the previous verses and that communion isn't all that important. (except Lutherans...but again... "Catholic-light") :o)



1 Corinthians 11 " ²³For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, ²⁴and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." ²⁵In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." ²⁶For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

To sum up:

Catholics believe that when Jesus said the word "is" that He meant "is"

Protestants believe that when Jesus said the word "is" that He meant "represents"

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Well, Those are my new understandings. This is really a fascinating journey as I've been learning more and more over the past few years. The ideas and thoughts from both sides of the isle have mesmerized me. I have found that I believe a lot of what my Catholic friends believe because, as it turns out, their religion isn't as "different" as I once thought it to be....though I still have questions!! LOL

I'm NOT saying our religions are the same, but I am saying they are more alike than I once realized.

I do enjoy learning about many Christian points of view and would appreciate thoughts from readers as well. If questions and understandings are presented in a gentle spirit, I would love to read them in the comment section. If they are presented in a mean spirit, they won't make the cut. (nuff said)

My next quest is to find the history of how people worshipped before the Protestant reformation/rebellion. If you have any links about church history "pre"...both Protestant and Catholic... I'd love to see them. :o)

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UPDATE: I have found that there are some Catholics who do believe that the Eucharist is Christ's actual, physical body.  Of course, as with any religion...especially one with a billion members...there will be LOTS of interpretations of the teachings of the Catholic Church. (questions 1353 and 1390)  I should have said...the Catechism states that the Eucharist is Sacramentally Jesus rather than assume all Catholics believe one particular way about what 'Sacramentally" means.

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FOURTH POST: DO CATHOLICS PRAY TO DEAD SPIRITS?